The Great Debate...

Recently I have engaged in an extended e-mail debate with a close friend of mine regarding Les Miles. To protect the innocent I will just call him “JC.” JC is a very knowledgeable football fan and quite reasonable. No crazy talk (for the most part) and all of his ideas are well thought out.

That doesn’t mean I agree with him.

But he does raise a number of valid points. What follows is our exchange. Rather than paraphrase or edit, I’ve posted the e-mails verbatim.

Ultimately, the question we are debating can be phrased in two ways:

Is the 2008 season an aberration or an indication of things to come?

OR

Is Les Miles the right person to lead the LSU football program forward?

JC: les miles = larry coker

Prowler: you mean JC = assclown

JC: you want to edit that prior comment? at some point last night [vs. Troy] while watching the game you had to have some thoughts about it.

i feel vindicated! haha...

come on, dude. seriously, where do you think he ranks in SEC coaches? i put him behind richt, meyer, spurrier, saban. at best he is 5th in the SEC. i bet most of the experts would even put nutt above him, which is debatable. be realistic and try to be unbiased and tell me where you would rank him.

how do you feel about the ole miss game next weekend?

Prowler: If I could hire any one of these guys to run my program, this would be it...

Saban
Miles
Meyer
Spurrier
Richt
Tuberville
Nutt
Brooks
Petrino
Johnson
Croom

Seriously.

I know some will never warm to Miles and that is fine. But I like the dude. I think he will be good for LSU for a long time. LSU will be in good shape next season and this recruiting class looks AWESOME. After the '09 and'10 seasons, we will take a look and compare the numbers.

LSU was hung over from last week [loss to Alabama] but the COACHES were able to get these guys in the right direction in the second half. I think that is a direct reflection of Miles. I know he could win 5 titles in a row and some people would still want to get rid of him.

As for Ole Miss...I think this win may bring these guys together. Sure LSU could go 0-3 down the stretch, but they could also go 3-0.

But you have to know where I am coming from, I am one of the 15 people left in the stands at the end of the game Saturday. (when we went down 31-3, the coker comparison came to mind) But notice that LSU beat down Miami and they quit. LSU under Miles just doesn't quit. I am not a fair weather fan or a bandwagoner. So maybe that is my bias, i don't know. But if I thought he was in over his head I would say so.

JC: i like him too. i think he is great at recruiting, which is a big part of college football. but, one of the good things about him in the past was that he hired good coordinators, which i think he did a poor job of this year. i don't think he is good at the X's and O's, so as long as he hires good coordinators, i think he is fine, especially because players want to play for him.

one thing about me is that i am not a band waggoner. i always said i didn't agree with the hire (i truly believed after that Tennessee game the first year that he was not our guy). 28-21 at OSU is not good, although most people pointed to that as a selling point. Gundy is doing better than miles did. people also pointed to his 3 wins against OU in 4 years there. that says a lot to me. how can you be good enough to beat OU 3 times, yet still have 28-21 record? so, he is able to get his team prepared for the OU game, but can't get them fired up against the other teams? is this considered good coaching?

i do agree that the fact they came back was big. however, this was troy. freeking troy. we were down 31-3 to TROY!!!! and, as much as you give the coaches credit for the last 25 minutes, you have to blame them for the first 35 minutes. so again, the coaching sucked for the first 35 minutes. you know troy should have won the game. why they continued passing in the second half is a mystery.

every team lays an egg periodically. i think we have laid 3 eggs this year (florida, georgia, and troy). but, to be down 31-3 to troy is inexcusable. i don't care that we came back and beat them. you can point to the UAB loss a couple of years ago, and i am sure there are plenty more. those losses were bad, and like i said, all teams lay eggs periodically. however, to be down 31-3 to troy? extremely poor coaching.

i still hope i am wrong. i want to win championships with miles. i disagree though that next year's team will be in good shape. i continually hear people talk about that. next year we have the same QB who you think should improve (although he appears to have regressed this season). but, we potentially lose our entire o-line other than barksdale. i don't see us being better next season. where are we going to be better? and defensively, we won't be better unless changes are made. who knows if that is going to happen.

Prowler: I hear you.

But don't you think there is something to be said about losing to the #1 team in the country in a OT game that was really physical? The players and coaches had a hangover no doubt. The fans and talking heads are saying, "the season is over." You think the players don't hear that stuff?

Miles admitted that the game plan on offense in the first half was designed to "protect" Lee from screwing up. At the half they realized that wasn't going to work and went back to a normal game plan. Plus they won. Isin't it about winning? Is winning not enough, must we win with style for it to count?

If you want to gut the defensive staff I am with you. But I'll take Miles any day of the week.

You say we "laid an egg" versus UF and UGA. WHAT? Florida has killed EVERYONE after that loss to Ole Miss. You look at the games, LSU was the MOST competitive of all. The Score was 20-14 before the Gators took over with 20 minutes left in the game. That is not "laying an egg."

As for Georgia, Lee really stuggled. Two pick sixes is tough to overcome for any team. LSU has lost to 11-0 Bama (#1 in polls), 9-1 (Florida, probably best team in the country), and 9-2 Georgia (those two losses came to bama and UF). That is nothing to be ashamed of. those teams are combined 29-3.

Last season LSU had the highest scoring offense in school history, so we know Crowton can coach. We have a freshman who is struggling. Do you think Stafford at Geogia is a bad player or poorly coached? He threw 3 picks vs. Florida.

How bout Spurrier, he got beat by 50!!! 50!!!

I know Florida has better players...but 50? Florida is a POWERFUL TEAM.

Speaking of Florida...if Urban is so good, how come he went 9-4 last season WITH THE HEISMAN WINNER?

Saban is awesome i agree, but that team quit on him last season. No doubt.

As for Miles time at OSU, let us review the time before he got there....

In 2003, he got OSU to a New Years' Day bowl for the first time since 1946....1946 dude, before Miles got there, that was the last New Years Day Bowl.

28-21 not good? Are you kidding me??

http://www.okstate.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=200&KEY=&ATCLID=157313&SPID=143&SPSID=1423

that is the link to the OSU record book....you show me where OSU is some tremendous program...they have a lifetime losing record in football...yes, in the 100+ years of cowboy football they have lost more than they have won.

Miles still has a better winning % than Gundy, but by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of your argument. (Gundy needs to go 10-2 this season to TIE Miles 4 year record of 28-21.)

I get that some don't like Miles.

But don't throw numbers or facts at me b/c the argument won't stand up.

he's 41-9 overall, BCS Champ, SEC Champ, 2 SEC West Titles, 3-0 in bowl games, 2-0 in BCS games. 23-9 in SEC games, (11-4 in SEC road games), 18-0 in non-conference games.

If you don't like his style or think he is a goof ball or don't like the X's and O's strategy, I get that. But as for productivity, don't go there.

JC: i am going to address your points in order as below:

1) yes, teams have let downs. every week, teams have let downs. but, for us to have a let down to the point where we are down 31-3 is inexcusable. troy is not bad, but come on.

2) looking back at florida and UGA, i still think we laid an egg. for florida we have as much talent as them except at the QB position. i know they are good, but not 51-21 good over us. if we lined up and they just beat us because they were better, that would be one thing. but, we just sucked against them pure and simple. as for UGA, we are better than them, so yes, we laid an egg against them at home. as for bama, i don't think we laid an egg against them. we matched up against them well. i was less concerned about that game than any other of the losses going into the game. but, i still think we are a better team than them.

3) yes, it is about winning. but, there are warning signs. when most of your wins are coming down to the wire against average to below average teams, you need to recognize that coaching is a problem. which game would you say we played a complete game from beginning to end? i don't see one all year.

4) as for Urban, you really want to discuss this? he won a championship and came back 9-4 with a new full time QB. we are in a similar position. however, florida is the best team in the country right now and the favorite to win the national championship. for your argument to hold water, we would have to be that good next year. you think we will be in the same position as florida next year? NO!!!

5) as for miles taking OSU to a new year's bowl, that doesn't mean as much any more. there are so many bowls, and more new year's day bowls that the accomplishment isn't what it once was. besides, those were also the years that the BIG 12 was down.

6) yes, miles has a better winning percentage than gundy. miles was 28-21 and gundy is 26-20 i believe. that is nearly identical. if gundy goes 2-1 the rest of the year, then identical. so, don't throw that winning percentage thing out there. besides, i would argue that gundy's performance is better seeing as how strong the Big 12 is. 26-20 over the past 4 years is more impressive to me than 28-21 over the previous 4. can you really argue with that. so, is 28-21 good? it's average.

Prowler: These are all good points. I think the difference we have is in perception and expectation. Was I pissed that we were down 4 TD's? ABSOLUTELY. But I stayed at the game. I didn't give up and I didn't quit like so many other fans. Maybe my dedication makes me a little biased. These things happen, but the bottom line was Miles got them right and they won. I look around college football and I see quirky things all the time.

Michigan losing to App State...WVU losing to Pitt...John Cooper can't beat Michigan...USC loses to 41 point dog Stanford...Gators lose at home to Ole Piss...Bama loses to UL Monroe....Give me your analysis of those loses...Clearly Miles has never had a loss as horrific as UL Monroe or Stanford. I think Pete Carroll is a great coach...so how do you reconcile that loss? Miles has never lost to a team with a losing record.

Obviously we disagree on the issue, but I think it has to do with perception and expectations. I think he's an excellent coach, and he has exceeded all expections I had. If he never wins another SEC title, then you can say to me "i told you so." (See, I didn't say National Title b/c I don't think you can EXPECT one of those...very tough. But I think you can expect an SEC title every 5 or 6 years)

JC: i generally agree with you. there are always quirky things going on. as i mentioned, teams lay eggs every week. but to address the ones you listed below:

michigan losing to app st. - very bad loss and as a result lloyd carr had to be replaced. fans wanted him out long before that, and that just really solidified it.

USC losing to stanford - very bad loss, but at least it was to a PAC-10 team. still inexcusable, but week in and week out USC destroys all their other opponents. they play complete games every week generally, but always seem to have that one bad loss. we seldom appear to play a complete game.

WVU losing to Pitt - pitt was not a bad team.

Florida losing to ole miss - ole miss is not bad. we have a decent chance of losing to them.

Bama losing to ULM - bad loss that should never happen. saban's first year with shula's recruits. bad loss, but now he has #1 team in nation.

also, all of those losses were competitive. yes, we won and in the end you can say it was a competitive game, but i don't recall in any of those losses you mentioned the teams getting manhandled for 40 minutes. that to me is the difference.

i do like miles personality. i like having him as a coach. i just worry about what might happen. right now, i know that if we had saban or meyer, we would never slip back into mediocrity. i can't say the same with miles. i have seen too much mediocrity in games with him as coach (with some flashes of great). that's what worries me. i can't say with 100% confidence that we won't end up an average team. with coaches like saban or meyer, i would have 100% confidence that we would not end up an average team. that right there defines my issue with miles.

Feel free to chime in with your thoughts…